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[Discussion] Taiko Competition

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Post by HareHareYukai Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:41 pm

of course the fairest way would be just depending on individual score... but 1v1 has its benefits, for example making your opponent play your song, and your opponent making you play his/her song. In a way prevents ppl who keep playing same few songs for solo.

Otherwise, If we dont mind a long tournament which may span over a longer duration, the quarters can change formation like:

Everyone play round robin against every other player.
thus there will be 28 rounds, and since the possibility of 8 people getting 3 wins each = 24wins, there are exactly 4 more wins , which will result in the closest scenario possible being 4 people getting 4 wins, 4 people getting 3 wins, clearly dividing the people who advance.

1v2 1v3 1v4 1v5 1v6 1v7 1v8 (7)
2v3 2v4 2v5 2v6 2v7 2v8 (6)
3v4 3v5 3v6 3v7 3v8 (5)
4v5 4v6 4v7 4v8 (4)
5v6 5v7 5v8 (3)
6v7 6v8 (2)
7v8 (1)
=28 rounds
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Post by yuu_yuki Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:47 pm

HareHareYukai wrote:perhaps we should have different mode competitions? is that fairer?
and erm knockout is definitely the easy way out.. but just imagine.. what if i face yuu in the quarters.

I'm sure to lose. Period.
Cos' my level's not there yet to play the songs you choose.

As for the round robin thing, sorry, mistaken it as 28 rounds for each person. Sounds okay to me if it's only 7 rounds. How about the rest??
Maybe we can draw lots or something for the songs, you know like those 4D type of rolling thingy. To add difficulty, can have those ninja modes like those 2x, 3x, opposite.
And this ninja modes can give the people playing it as bonus points too.


Last edited by yuu_yuki on Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by HareHareYukai Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:51 pm

Semifinals remain the same, round robin again, everyone play against each other once. However, if again, the scenario of 3wins0lose, and the other 3ppl getting 1 win 2 lose each occur again, we play a tiebreaker match of solo, any songs allowed(even repeated), all up to individual. the highest score gets in.

btw, if we're really going for the 28-round quarterfinals, each song can be repeated twice, if not the song list is limited since only 14 songs are allowed.

At the semis, the song record is reseted again, each song only allowed to play once within semis.

Finals rules remain same.. that isnt a problem.

Let the competition span over 3 weeks.
First week: Qualifiers; Unlimited no. of participants allowed.
Results Out> 8 make in to next round
2nd week: Quarter-Finals; 28 rounds, each person plays 7 rounds in total.
Results Out> 4 make it to next round
3rd week: Semi-Finals; 6 rounds, each person plays 3 rounds in total.
Results Out> 2 make it to next round
3rd week: Finals; 3 rounds, each person plays all 3 rounds unless there is a champion winning two rounds in a row.

This system very complex, doubt any sponsor will agree. obviously the easiest way out for them would be to knockout.. but no way that's fair. thats totally unfair.
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Post by yuu_yuki Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:55 pm

Yes, agree with the notation of knockout round being unfair.
What the rest think? I think it's not a bad idea. Where's Chin Kai??


Last edited by yuu_yuki on Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by HareHareYukai Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:57 pm

yuu_yuki wrote:
HareHareYukai wrote:perhaps we should have different mode competitions? is that fairer?
and erm knockout is definitely the easy way out.. but just imagine.. what if i face yuu in the quarters.

I'm sure to lose. Period.
Cos' my level's not there yet to play the songs you choose.

As for the round robin thing, does everyone wanna spend their money for those 28 rounds?? I doubt so except for the few of us.
Maybe we can draw lots or something for the songs, you know like those 4D type of rolling thingy. To add difficulty, can have those ninja modes like those 2x, 3x, opposite.
And this ninja modes can give the people playing it as bonus points too.

precisely why the knockout system cannot be played. if not its so unfair.

28 happens to be a number which facilitates round robins easily if we want 4 to advance because it is (8x3)+4. If no round robin, the other numbers will result in tiebreakers which we all dislike i guess.

the 2x 3x opposite bonus points are cool, but then its quite unfair imagine someone can do but not lucky enough to get the correct ninja mode. + some songs can easily 4x speed (tong hua, LOL), and its nt close to fast. and slow songs of similar * level can get 2x compared to fast songs of same * level but get 2x. so this might be abit unfair.. we should come up with a list of songs which CAN be 2x-ed, with the appropriate bpm so that it befits 2x, and yet not too insane.
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Post by yuu_yuki Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:07 pm

There's 4x speed?? I remembered there's only up to 3x speed and one opposite mode??

So there will be a total of less than 20 rounds per person if they get to advance to the finals. We should test run it as see how long this thing takes.
How about doubles and double play?
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Post by fuuyue Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:21 am

LjSJacK wrote:
fuuyue wrote:maybe it would be fun to have an internal taiko competition?
just the few of us just for testers?


n then perhaps if its successful, we can liase with ZoneX
and probably get some sponsors.

its a good way of getting to know more taiko players
and directing traffic flow to our forum
and giving us publicity

eh but isn't it obvious that either BLYX or Yuu will win ?

lets have internal competition n exclude them =P

they can compete on 3x speed...
against each other XD
only each other
XD
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Post by fuuyue Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:27 am

LjSJacK wrote:
fuuyue wrote:i think if we wan a public one. we can liase with zoneX
maybe get them to sponsor some prizes?

and maybe for the main top 3 prizes
its sth like...
1st - 80SGD gameplay into ur tap card
2nd - 50SGD gameplay into ur tap card
3rd - 30SGD gameplay into ur tap card

i'm not very sure whether zonex with want to co-operate with us. But we must first think of this, what do they gain by helping us.

lets me see if i can put up a list:


  • free advertisement/publicity
  • gather the crowds = more income
  • we will need to charge registration fee, part of it goes to them
  • if we get some mag reporters in, more publicity for them
  • we can put it across as some youth activity under nebo
  • help publicise taiko no tatsujin >> this is good for in future more ppl will play thus gaining more income

thats abt all i can think up for now.
need to research on their company policy and their activities b4 i can put across a more thorough argument.
anyway ZoneX has basketball competition... mushi king competition before.
so there must be some other plus points for them besides what i just listed
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Post by fuuyue Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:31 am

LjSJacK wrote:
yuu_yuki wrote:To say the truth, i not very sure if it's fair by what blyx had suggested.
Not many people can play a whole list of oni songs like what blyx and me can do. Out of 114 songs in the arcade, blyx can pass the 112 oni songs right now and i can only pass around 100 oni songs the max?? As for muzukashii level, if i can pass all those 114 songs in muzu, blyx can pass it for sure too.

So, it's kinda not really that fair as in the sense that it really excludes a lot of people out there who just play for fun under normal and muzu mode.
Unless you're referring to each individual category of normal, hard and oni, else if all of them are competing together, I think most of us will know who the top 3 positions will turn out to be.

like i said. Actually, some people do not play some songs. So myswell we just select some easier songs like oni 4-5 star songs where everyone can play. So it's actually determining whether you can fc + more liangs. it's more efficient than a 10 star oni song right?

this is a good point.
but yuu can sightread well...

oh well... anyway if we have an actual competition...
event organisers r not allowed to play!
thus...
blyx n yuu r not allowed on the competition floor.
internal competition is otherwise

anyway, if the winner wishes to try playing against yuu or blyx, then.. its his choice lor.
we can make that as a side event..
an extra one!

like...
pay $2 to test ur skills against blyx!
winner gets a prize!

=X

n then blyx chooses ekibenz2000 (or some other freaky song)
=X
(this is hell for whoever tries)
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Post by fuuyue Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:39 am

HareHareYukai wrote:perhaps we should have different mode competitions? is that fairer?
and erm knockout is definitely the easy way out.. but just imagine.. what if i face yuu in the quarters.

so muzukashi players face off against muzukashi players etc.

if you ask zonex to support us, i think they might go along with knockout cuz its the simplest.. but it really.. really defeats the purpose. It might end up becoming a game of luck. whts more they'll probably insist on one person using the left drum throughout.

drum side wise, we can rotate. 2 time on left, 2 times on right.

anyway, we really do need to keep it simple.

i was thinking about using the scores mtd.

n the 4 songs wise...
we let the players who r facing off decide.
they have to choose an option b4 they face off
option A : 1 1 star, 1 2star, 1 3star, 1 4star
option B : 1 3star, 1 4star, 1 5star, 1 6star
option C : 1 5star, 1 6star, 1 7star, 1 8 star
option D : 1 7 star, 1 8star, 1 9star, 1 10star

both have to agree on the options.
and then we random the songs they get for each star category.

is that better?

like this its fair,

  • coz the choice is agreeed on by the players
  • we go by scored ( aka top 8 in scores will advance)
  • and if they choose option A and get low points, whereas they cld have agreed on option C for higher points, they cant complain. coz its their choice!
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Post by fuuyue Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:42 am

yuu_yuki wrote:
HareHareYukai wrote:perhaps we should have different mode competitions? is that fairer?
and erm knockout is definitely the easy way out.. but just imagine.. what if i face yuu in the quarters.

I'm sure to lose. Period.
Cos' my level's not there yet to play the songs you choose.

As for the round robin thing, sorry, mistaken it as 28 rounds for each person. Sounds okay to me if it's only 7 rounds. How about the rest??
Maybe we can draw lots or something for the songs, you know like those 4D type of rolling thingy. To add difficulty, can have those ninja modes like those 2x, 3x, opposite.
And this ninja modes can give the people playing it as bonus points too.

may lady luck shine on u.

hahaha my this mtd is fun, it also sees ur skills, its based on luck...

BUT!!!
its freaking stressful and ARGH-some if u kana 3x

(well, its haha for me though, coz i'm not playing =P)
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Post by fuuyue Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:44 am

LASTLY... blyx....
well, ur round robin thingy is fair...

BUT!!
if we r gonna get zoneX to help out. possibly sponsor and stuff...
chances r low for such a long competition.
n its gonna be freaking long to administer...
thus losing out on possible participants.

sigh. thats the main thing i worry abt
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Post by yuu_yuki Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:36 pm

Wow!! You all really have such great ideas!!

@YUE, some lower stars songs actually can get pretty high marks wor. hahah, and i like your idea on letting others pit against me and blyx, let's call it "BOSS STAGE". Hahahahahahaa~

Maybe if they pay $2 to play against me or blyx, they get prizes like those in Daiso or something worth slightly more than $2 if they can win either me or blyx in terms of scores. If never win, they get consolation prizes too, like some sweets/choco and some cold drinks too~

We need a team to organize this competition, so who's in it besides chin kai?? I don't mind to help out in the BOSS STAGE xD

Oh,
and i think BLYX round robin is fair, but like what yue says, other people may not want such long competition and waste money.
Yue suggestions sounds pretty good to me too though.

So the next thing is, who can we talk to in ZoneX after test run? Surely we need a formal letter to write-in kind of procedure?
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Post by ongchinkai Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:09 pm

ok i will need some time to look through all these, cos i'm really quite busy with schoolwork at the moment.

let's say i have A vs B, C vs D. A and B are pros, while C and D are noobs. KO is unfair to B if he loses to A.

an option to consider could be double-KO, a format often used in gaming competitions. in essence, you lose twice in a row, you are out. using the above example, if B and D loses, they are not eliminated, but instead placed into the loser's bracket. now if B plays against D and wins, he gets to continue advancing. in other words, it is possible for you to lose your first game and yet make it to the finals. but this still involves chance.

i'm not sure how the round robin will work out, especially for games like taiko. i'm not convinced it will work out as we expect it to, but it may be just me.

regarding the collaboration with zonex, now i have some experience in event management, and what i can tell you is that if you want to work with zonex, there has to be something in it for them - that's for sure. you can't just promise them this and that; they run a business, they need numbers.

so unless someone can come up with a very detailed proposal, i doubt zonex will even consider it.

ok i need to get back to my work. =/
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Post by HareHareYukai Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:50 pm

chinkai round robin is much fairer in comparison to knockout. DEFINITELY, except that zonex would never want a long one. eh btw YES I DoNT Mind doING BOSS STAGE XD. so we can do our fair judging and organizing whereas anyone want challenge us also not bad. sounds so FUN! xD!

actually i think.. if zonex wants anything.. just look at the no. of ppl playing taiko everyday.. at jp especially.. probly the most crowded and frequently played by.. if we publicise due to competition.. they stand to benefit cuz even more ppl play. and they can get like more machines.. more revenue. etc.
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Post by HareHareYukai Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:52 pm

yes i and i want to be part of the organizing team too since i can't participate yuu too -.-"

andand yueyue the agreement for song selection sounds great. but then the problem is.. what if the two seriously cant come to a decision? imagine its a young kid playing 1,2,3,4 stars, the adult playing 7.8.9.10 stars. if any of these are chosen, its obviously very unfair to the other if the other person wins anyway. so this is a point of reconsideration.
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Post by HareHareYukai Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:59 pm

But i think i shall come to another conclusion: that is, in a taiko competition, the purpose is for the better player to win. so we can't really say that if a person chooses a 10* song against a person who can only play 4* songs is unfair.

so the fairer thing would be having them, instead of the original proposal i made, select specific songs they want, select the stars as proposed by yue, but not in a specific sequence like1,2,3,4 or 7,8,9,10.

For example:
If a person wants to play 2* and 3*, the other person chooses 8*,9* then all will be random for the exact star level they want. this is much fairer, so the people may not get the song they want, but can get the star level they want at least, so its up to personal choice still, but invovles randomization for fairness.
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Post by yuu_yuki Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:09 pm

I still goes for the drawing lots thing + player choose.
Maybe like 2 songs will be drawing lots (each participant draw one)
and the other 2 songs will be choice of song (each participant choose one song)
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Post by yuu_yuki Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:14 pm

HareHareYukai wrote:chinkai round robin is much fairer in comparison to knockout. DEFINITELY, except that zonex would never want a long one. eh btw YES I DoNT Mind doING BOSS STAGE XD. so we can do our fair judging and organizing whereas anyone want challenge us also not bad. sounds so FUN! xD!

actually i think.. if zonex wants anything.. just look at the no. of ppl playing taiko everyday.. at jp especially.. probly the most crowded and frequently played by.. if we publicise due to competition.. they stand to benefit cuz even more ppl play. and they can get like more machines.. more revenue. etc.

Still, no matter what, companies like Zone X needs numbers to prove that they can benefit from organizing Taiko Competition. They want facts and figures, not just empty sayings and talks.

This is a standard thing for proposal. Unless we can produce real numbers for them, it's kind of hard to just let them hold the competition and to sponsor us.
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Post by HareHareYukai Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:56 pm

yuu_yuki wrote:I still goes for the drawing lots thing + player choose.
Maybe like 2 songs will be drawing lots (each participant draw one)
and the other 2 songs will be choice of song (each participant choose one song)

k so in that case, the drawing lots one is draw from a certain * level right?
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Post by yuu_yuki Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:50 pm

Nope. The drawing of lots consist of ALL 114 songs.


That make sure it's fair since everyone has a probability of drawing any song from any level. Fail or not, the scores will still be recorded down and added up.
So we put in some luck element in it too. This makes it more interesting.
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Post by HareHareYukai Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:57 pm

okay. but the luck element can be terrifying when one gets a super EASY or super HARD SONG. if it were a super easy song even a better person can lose due to one miss or liang lol

ee scary in a way haha.
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Post by yuu_yuki Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:20 pm

HareHareYukai wrote:okay. but the luck element can be terrifying when one gets a super EASY or super HARD SONG. if it were a super easy song even a better person can lose due to one miss or liang lol

ee scary in a way haha.

That's what makes it interesting. xD
Besides, the better person can always win for the chosen song on the first two songs. Drawing of lots song will be the latter half of game play.
Luck element like toto. Haha
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Post by fuuyue Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:22 pm

ongchinkai wrote:ok i will need some time to look through all these, cos i'm really quite busy with schoolwork at the moment.

let's say i have A vs B, C vs D. A and B are pros, while C and D are noobs. KO is unfair to B if he loses to A.

an option to consider could be double-KO, a format often used in gaming competitions. in essence, you lose twice in a row, you are out. using the above example, if B and D loses, they are not eliminated, but instead placed into the loser's bracket. now if B plays against D and wins, he gets to continue advancing. in other words, it is possible for you to lose your first game and yet make it to the finals. but this still involves chance.

i'm not sure how the round robin will work out, especially for games like taiko. i'm not convinced it will work out as we expect it to, but it may be just me.

regarding the collaboration with zonex, now i have some experience in event management, and what i can tell you is that if you want to work with zonex, there has to be something in it for them - that's for sure. you can't just promise them this and that; they run a business, they need numbers.

so unless someone can come up with a very detailed proposal, i doubt zonex will even consider it.

ok i need to get back to my work. =/

hmm i like the loser's bracket thingy.


and yes, we need a detailed proposal.
some research is needed here.
like... what kinda competitions they held b4 n why.


as for boss stage with yuu n blyx,
it can be an xtra thing.
but we have to make sure we done end up paying for the prizes ourselves
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Post by fuuyue Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:25 pm

HareHareYukai wrote:yes i and i want to be part of the organizing team too since i can't participate yuu too -.-"

andand yueyue the agreement for song selection sounds great. but then the problem is.. what if the two seriously cant come to a decision? imagine its a young kid playing 1,2,3,4 stars, the adult playing 7.8.9.10 stars. if any of these are chosen, its obviously very unfair to the other if the other person wins anyway. so this is a point of reconsideration.

thats the only prob i cant work round.
haiz.
but having each player choose 2 wadever-number-of-stars songs each is also abit... unfair?

argh!!!
how do japan hold their taiko competitions anyway?!?!?!


or are we just thinking too much coz we play too much thus knowing many many loopholes?
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